Curse

Big_Iron · Apr 18, 2007, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Heroes and, yes, even henchies have gotten so good, you don't need real people anymore. And, they're more predictable. Koss doesn't rage quit if he's not healed to his satisfaction by Dunkoro. If you get wiped, you have no one to blame but yourself. I still look for PuGs on occasion since I do enjoy human interaction, but if I can't get guildies, most of the time I opt for Heroes and henchies for all three chapters.

Recently, I've gone back to redo Prophecies to get missed bonuses with my wammo. I had 14 bonuses to complete and I've done 12 with Heroes and henchies with only two more to go. To be honest, it's been a breeze.

Torqual · Apr 18, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by gene terrodon

The problem is that everyone wants to tell everyone else what to do and what build to use. If there is non-compliance, either you are kicked or the group disbands.

QFT

I have a few like this in my own guild TBH. They don't play the game with an 8 box skill bar but with a 32 box one that includes their 3 heroes. We have a monk that whines when we play 8-player because he no longer has a Necro following him round like a puppy dog with Blood Ritual. Learn E-management ffs you Heal Party spamming fool! We have a Warrior that doesn't bring stances, condition-management or self-heal because he's used to having Tahlkora and Dunkoro on an elastic-band behind him... spamming ROF, Mend Condition and Aegis/Guardian while he Leeroys in deep after squishies. The guy's skill bar is 8 sword attacks.

These are experienced players but you take their heroes away and they are more n00by than the genuine n00bs as they can't go back to a more self-sufficient playing style.

What's a bit annoying is how unwelcoming the game may seem. We may shout at people for having dumb builds but if they are gonna get grief everytime they try to PUG, how are they supposed to learn the game?

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 18, 2007, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I agree with the comments that recommend finding a good guild is your best bet.
Also look out for higher level players who volunteer to help. I go out and help people with quests all the time. I must admit that I also use this as a method to find new guildmates which can be a win/win situation for both people.

Orbberius · Apr 18, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

I miss PuGs. After the singleplayer game that is Nightfall, I recently made a new Prophecies character and pugged more in the past 2 days than I have in the past 4 months! It's pretty fun! Not every player is an amazing player, but hey, it's not like I'm an amazing player or all the people who play only with heroes and henchies are amazing players, so I just look past it (at least in PvE).

Recently I've started helping out people for the Gates of Madness mission, because it's probably the toughest one in Nightfall, and it's just fun to help people out.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 18, 2007, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orbberius

it's just fun to help people out.

I totally agree, I help people to repay all those people who helped me in the past. You meet a lot of nice people that way too.

ChaoticCoyote · Apr 18, 2007, 02:00 PM // 14:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

As for WoW, don't pick that up if you're looking to get into PUGs.
Grouping there only tends to happen with high level content (from about level 45 upwards).
Up until that point, it's a very solitary experience.

I am constantly asked to join groups in WoW, which I do -- and my poor dwarf is only level 16 at the moment.

I've had no trouble at all being social in WoW.

Just because you love GW doesn't mean you should spread FUD about WoW.

Braggi · Apr 18, 2007, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by trustgw

Well, fast forward a few days in the game, I can't get people to play with me. Everyone is using heroes. I joined a Guild, but they are not on or doing their own thing and do not have time to help me with the ton of quests I have to do to get to the next mission.

It gets better towards the end of Kourna and maybe on weekends (don't play much then). I missed that I can cap Barrage during the primary quest "The Great Escape" from Arjok Ward - it proved frustrating to find someone who still needs the quest and netted me some "noob" comments when I looked for a party there (capped it in Factions after two days).

But later on I found more (competent) people willing to skip heros in favor of human players, and these groups were almost all good experiences. But a good guild or alliance definitely rules. Try to get an invite from people you already enjoyed playing with - this is definitely better than joining a random invite in Kourna...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torqual

The expert players have a full set of heroes with green items and 'synergistic' builds with elite skills. The average players have some heroes with basic equipment and default skillsets. The bad players don't have any heroes.

A bit exaggerated, but with a very true core. An experienced player has unlocked a lot of elite skills and skill sets - these are superior to anything a new player has access to at this stage. He is also well off enough to buy runes and upgrades for his heros and probably has his skill bars ready anyway. Then they whine that the game is too easy

.

If you start the process (or the game) you have a lot to do besides learning your class - aquire and save skill bars not only for you but also your heros, classes you maybe don't understand very well. Equipping your heros is additional financial strain. You lack good Elite skills. The easiest way to get these is via PvP (use Balthazar points to unlock stuff for your Heros) if you're into this (I use AB). This looks daunting at first, the investment only pays in the long run.

Davros Uitar · Apr 18, 2007, 02:20 PM // 14:20

I have to admit that I play mostly now with a guildie or 2 and heroes, and it has made the game too easy. Before heroes, getting masters on tough timed missions like Nahpui quarter required careful selection of members, weeding out the weak, and repetition to improve the balance until the goal was achieved. Nowadays that mission is an absolute cakewalk for masters with the heroes.

The best things about heroes are the competency level, and not sitting about for hours doing the "GLF monks 6/8" thing.

The worst thing is that it has killed of those gilt edged moments when a team pulling together wins through something it probably shouldn't. All my favourite game moments were in PUG's.

Standing about in the Abbadons Gate fortress with a badly balanced team struggling to make a dent on the first pair of bosses (monk), when your 2 monks and ele all up and leave in a huff. The 4 tanks and a ranger (with one res and one res signet amongst them and a smattering of Death Penalty) decide who the hell needs monks, those squishies were wrong, this party IS strong enough to do this

. A couple of times we were down to the one ranger with res and most of us spent quite a few minutes on the ground dead (no candycanes then either), but eventually the "kill one and run" thing got there. We must have set a record for slowest time ever to complete the mission but we blimmin well enjoyed every second of the banter and the tension.

Let's all see what Hard mode does to the game dynamic.

trustgw · Apr 18, 2007, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by joukou

If I just want to finish a mission as fast as possible/Masters, I take heroes/hench.
When I actually wanna have fun, I go with PUGs.

I agree, for me winning is not finishing the game as fast and efficiently as possible. It was about the social aspect of the game. Even the bad ones were funny (as it was fun making fun of them). And in the first GW I completed the story many times with PUGS so they are not THAT horrible. Right now it just sucks to play as the quests feel like grinding to me.

Can anyone suggest a large PVE Guild with people I could play with during non peak hours? Maybe that is the problem and I will be back to enjoying GW.

And I do agree with the "GLF monks 6/8" issue in the first GW as it would sometimes be hard to get a game going as it was not easy to find a Monk. Or you found one and then he tells you in the game he is a Smite Monk. And a terrible one at that.

english storm · Apr 18, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

sometimes i still PUG but mostly i take my heroes and henchmen because they listen to me and if i fail it's mostly my own fault. I don't see the point in trying to PUG a mission any more when no-one decides to listen to you or follow plans made BEFORE you started the mission.

It's a shame because i used to have some real fun playing in PUG's through tyria but lets face it 90% of the time heroes are better

Oznog · Apr 18, 2007, 04:12 PM // 16:12

There are still good PUG groups. I was getting ready to heroway GoM and got a blind invite from a PUG group. They had 3 monks (one was Dunkoro), 2 derv, a ranger and another ele (I was set up for SF on my E/Me. I figured WTH and accepted. They had already done the previous two missions as a group and just lost their original ele.

This was a true PUG and not a guild group and we breezed through Gate Of Madness with expert. Was the most fun I've had with a PUG since THK 18 months ago. We then went on and got expert against Abaddon.

There are still good PUGs out there, it's just hard to find em.

Oz

Navaros · Apr 18, 2007, 04:17 PM // 16:17

I vehemently hate PUGs. The absurdity of their builds and insanely bad gameplay skills makes playing with them a terrible chore. Many good players take the same view and hence never PUG. Why would they want to endure that grief and endless stupid failures thanks to terrible allies when they can instead succeed easily the very first time with Heroes and Hench? In my view PUGing makes no sense whatsover. Heroes and Henchman controls/AI improvements saved Guild Wars.

Quote:

You are *meant* to team up with other people

As stated in other threads about this topic, the above quote is completely incorrect. The back of the Guild Wars box states very clearly that Guild Wars is supposed to be a solo game if you want it to be. That the vast majority of good players who have Heroes choose them over terrible PUG players is a choice that must be respected in accordance with the solo play statement on the back of the Guild Wars box.

Rocky Raccoon · Apr 18, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navaros

That the vast majority of good players who have Heroes choose them over terrible PUG players is a choice that must be respected in accordance with the solo play statement on the back of the Guild Wars box.

I respect your personal opinions on PUGs, but I hardly feel you can speak for a majority of good players. I know many excellent players who still will help with PUG teams just because they like too play with real people. Just because you are a so called good player is no reason to belittle whom you must consider bad players who are maybe just trying to learn the game. A good player should take some time and maybe give them a little guidance as to how to play.

Water Angel · Apr 18, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by dryserg

the real fun pve: UW, Urgoz, FoW, DoA,.. do not allow henchies you know..

actually it does.no longer than yesterday with a mate and 3 heroes each we cleared all the fow...would you do it with a pug?nope.one or 2 would probably d/c, ragequit,etc etc.

same for elite zones like doa/deep/urgoz.do it with a pug is really unprobable, cept if by miracle all 12 know what they do...what's rare.

heroes dun afk, dun ragequit, dun bring dumb skills, and obey...waht ask more?

OP :i dun get your point.you miss human company?friends?ok.but dun tell me u miss a pug...i like and enjoy play with friends/guildies over heroes/hench.but not over a pug with who im sure fail 75%.

people still enjoy play with friends and guildies.just no random unsure strangers.get more friends or get use to hench and heroes

Correct Jeans · Apr 18, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

ALL OF THE PUGS ARE IN THE DOA!! Lol. If you try to use heros out there ull die quicker than a baby licking his finger and sticking it in an electrical socket! I kno im horrible.

Orbberius · Apr 18, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Water Angel

people still enjoy play with friends and guildies.just no random unsure strangers.get more friends or get use to hench and heroes

I personally find random unsure strangers fun. It's the social aspect of meeting completely new people. Some are obviously going to be bad, but most are going to be good. I'm always pleasantly surprised. Besides, Guild Wars just isn't fun for me as a singleplayer game and guildies aren't always going to be available for every mission.

And I don't stress out if a mission goes badly because of a PuG or something, I mean, it's a game, what's the point of getting stressed about it? PuGs are almost always good for a laugh, either because they're good or because they're bad.

Correct Jeans · Apr 18, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I totally agree. I think that some of my favorite PUGs were the complete failures in the DoA. why am I always sayin the DoA? cause everywhere else is heroable! The DoA isnt! woot! What makes it even more fun is the vent or ts reqirement! It really can get u sometimes into a hilarious group. I love it! The DoA and HA are my favorite places cause of that! look at my location!

TheRaven · Apr 18, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Well, I like pugs and I usually don't have problems finding a PUG when I want one. I haven't gone deep into NF yet, but all the mission towns I have seen (up to Venta Cemetery) have lots of "LFG" chat.

I agree that pugging can be very frustrating at times, but I enjoy human interaction. If I truly want to get thru a mission and get thru it NOW I'll take henchies. Otherwise I'll spend an evening pugging.

The only mission I would not recommend pugging is Thunderhead Keep. There is something about that mission that causes otherwise intelligent players to have a brain freeze when pugging. The pugs I've been out with always scatter after the cutscene and NOBODY will protect the king.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joukou

We were doing Tahnnakai Temple, when our ranger noticed she forgot to change her attribute points before mission. Well, our douchebag monk says he wants everyone to resign and get rid of the ranger. He stopped and said he wouldn't heal us until we do so. I mean, seriously...

If I had been in charge here, I would have asked everyone to resign and let the ranger redistribute her points. I would have then kicked the monk (if necessary, added Dunkoro) and restarted with the ranger still in the group. I don't think I would even have considered keeping the monk because he already showed a tendency to ragequit and something else might upset him later on.

Most pugs are nice. If you have a good leader who can actually lead and put together a balanced team rather than just inviting whoever wants to come you'll be fine.

If you want to PUG but get frustrated with bad PUGS often then try to lead a group. You will be able to screen your teammates and probably have a better experience.

If you hate pugs, there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think anyone should be forced to pug if they don't want to. They'd just be grouchy elitists that give the pugs bad reputations.

Former Ruling · Apr 18, 2007, 05:29 PM // 17:29

PuGs were becoming a real problem. Lower amounts of people in each mission town, coupled with more of an influx of "not so good" or "jerk" players were really turning people off from joining human parties.

The amount of "fun" gained by playing with them was really outtrumped by the pain it was to play with most of them.

By factions most people were henching themissions anyway, which led to more evidence about just how dense the henchies were. To ease this they thought up Heros for nightfall - Basically Uber henchies as a "duct tape" fix to the main problem. (It doesn't solve the problem with PuGing, just makes it where you dont have to pug).

Since Nightfall release they have been trying with several updates to try to make puging an option again (party search, new friends list for grouped with people, etc). But right now it just isn't going to work for most things because the amount of people to pick from at each town is smaller. Noone wants to quest with people anymore (and really didnt from the start after about half way through the game), and they want to get the missions over with fast with henchies/heros.

EDIT: Btw, you asked about WoW. Not really a team game either. You won't find much help until the "end game" content (upper levels). People in town even scorn and mock you for asking "newbie" questions or wanting help in "newbie" areas. Much like in Guild Wars.

The Ernada · Apr 18, 2007, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Wow there sure are a lot of wrong asssumptions here. Heroes did not kill off PUGs. Bad PUGs killed off PUGs.

GW is stretched really thin across 3 campaigns. And will stretch even more so with Hard mode coming up. Heroes are actually a good thing.

People don't always have time to join a PUG or they have limited time or focus so they have A.I. companions so they dont have to trouble real life people by going AFK or leaving in the middle of a mission.

People who use heroes have no friends? Now that is just plain stupid to say. Especially coming from people who say they have trouble finding real people to play with.

Players who use henchies/heroes DONT always use them over real life people. People like me often play with guildies and friends when they ARE online. But use heroes when no one is or have limited time.

GW IS as much a solo game as it is a team game. (in PVE anyway)

All MMOs allow you to solo in some form or the other. Bringing up the argument that this is an online game isnt valid. Heck GW2 is even more of a solo game.

So stop blaming Heroes for the PUG problem in some knee jerk reaction and think about it.